Vernesta Cyril OBE. Windrush Cymru: Our Voices, Our Stories, Our History 2019

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Transcript of oral history interview with Vernesta Cyril OBE, , discussing his experience of growing up within a family which migrated from the Caribbean during the 1950's. Vernesta Cyril OBE was born in1943 in St. Lucia, she has spent 30 plus years working in hospitals in Wales. She was awarded Midwide of the Year in 2006 and an OBE for her contributions to the NHS.
 
Interviewee: Vernesta Camilla Cyril OBE.
Interviewer: Dr Adeola Dewis
Date: 27th June 2019

[00:00:00]
 
[My name is] Vernesta Camilla Cyril.  I’m posh for Camilla (laughs).

[My parents names were] Carita and Hilton, my Father worked on the big ships and my Mother done sewing, she done cooking, she done everything what you do in the Caribbean, but she used to do a lot of embroidery as well, so you know all sorts of stuff. [Siblings] Yes, three Brothers and three Sisters, but I lost a brother, he was age eleven, and I lost a sister she was only a baby, what I’d say is cot death now that I know.  I think my Brother may have been a bit Autistic and you know they didn’t diagnose it then, so I lost Elvin to that, nice boy, he was eleven and my Sister was just….I think it was a cot death, my Mother got up one morning and she was dead, so.
 
I am the second [in line] my Brother’s first, I’m the second, I’ve got another Sister after me, and then Elvin, the one who died, and then Marsella and Ursula and then Cuthbert.
 
[00:01:56]
[Growing up]


Yes, growing up, well I think it was quite happy. Growing up you know what it’s like in the Caribbean, Aunties and Uncles and extended families, so everybody was your Cousin sometimes...(laughs) and I say bathing in the rain, going up to the country when you have holidays, seeing people digging Yams and picking the Bread Fruit and the Ram [Nut Ram] watching the Bats on the Ram, Cashew Nuts, there’s a fruit under the Cashew Nuts,  Cashew Nut on top and there’s fruit and watching the Bats on all the Mango trees, and running up looking in the river for Crayfish, so it was quite happy and we didn’t live far from the sea actually.
 
You could go out about, I would say ten minutes and you’d be watching the ships come in, there’d be lots of tourists as well and not far from the beach either, the beach would take you about half an hour because, you had to walk then, they didn’t have all these little buses and things, so we’d walk through short cuts, up this chap...I think his Father may have been a Slave Master and he had this big white house on the hill, nothing around it but lots of trees, Mango trees, go over thing, so we’d walk past there, a little short cut, it was really...trees on either side and quite creepy, to go on the beach you know.
 
Sometimes watching the aeroplane coming in, and you just come across and you know, and they’d be on the beach, and you’d have barbecues like they put stones on and have something, but funny I didn’t swim, because I remember starting to swim and then they were quite cruel to sort of duck you, you know and you know children playing how...yeah, friends and siblings, and Esther swam a lot, my sister, but I didn’t, I didn’t like the thought of them sort of ducking me to see if you can get up, so.
 
[I was born in] 1943, [at St Lucia] yes. What was it like then...[thinking] Loads of children around you, because people had six, seven, eight, nine, how many children, and then you had, what I can remember from going to school, as a say five years old, four... five, remember going to school with my Brother holding hands and the beginning my Mother used to take us and after that we’d walk through a big park, they call the gardens, cos the school was just overlooking it and we’d walk through there, and we were told not to go on the Merry Go Round, which we would do, after school as well.  You get into school, I remember the teachers making dresses and doing this sorts of thing, they do a lot of hand craft there, and Christmas time we’d all the loops for the decorations and all these things and I remember them doing a sponging thing where...I don’t know what they call it now, it’s like wool or cotton whatever, you punch through thing and you can make like horses and animals and roses on this material, lots and lots of good things I remember them doing.
 
Lots of play, we skip, we play Ticky Tok, I don’t know if you ever Ticky Tok? Well there’s stone you’d have lovely stones, collect nice stones and it’s on the ground you play it and we’d see who pick up….they pick up this stone and go like that, and over there and try and pick up some more and see, Ticky Tok they call it, yeah Ticky Tok and we skipped a lot, we got the big rope from the Mahogany tree, you know these big ropes, that would be around the Mahogany tree, we go around and look for that and cut it, and skip with that you know, better times we’d have ropes but, it would scratch all your skin you know, and see you can skip better, you can go up, you can go down, you can...so you know, lovely time and in the rain, when it’s raining you know, we didn’t know the rainwater was good for your skin you know.
 
We did run in the rain and I remember what they washed your hair with it was like the Hibiscus leaves at times, you’d have your hair washed with that, and then they’d use the Aloes, not the Aloes the other flat one...Sinkle Bible [name for Aloe Vera in Jamaica]. Anyhow it’s a flat one that hasn’t got the prickles on it, and the leaves, I think it’s a family of the Aloes and they use it, you scrape it and that condition your hair with Caster Oil in and yeah.
 
I remember Confirming, my cousin Celia was so talented, first to admire a dress you know and with my Confirmation, and you know, doing my hair and putting it in like brown paper, rolling it in brown paper [laughs] ready for my Confirmation, and she crocheted, I think she knitted our socks and crocheted my purse, she was very talented, you know the socks up to here, she really knitted them nicely you know, what did I got...[thinking] cucumber pattern like little holes in it you know, very very talented.  My first (?) dress, it was nylon, for some they want nylon and pleated skirt, these people done these things by hand and pleated it under cold and cloth on top of the pleats, lovely pleat and then I had tucks all over and then little sequins in the middle, and the same dress with sleeves and little sequins.  On (Medley day?) when I came over, and met the lady, she said “Who made that dress?” so I was very proud of….

[00:08:12]
 
So yeah growing up was quite good actually, lots of friends calling, I think I selected my friends, my Sister didn’t care which was always in sort of problem, but I was on the other side, quiet side just like my books and have a little core of friends, so...and done well, well at school, when you had your school report, I was just thinking, I said to Tarindu that now, took it to your God Mother, your God Father, your Aunty, and your Father see it and your Mother and everybody would tell you “Well you better learn better, you know, do well, do well at school and der, der, der” I always wanted to aim for A’s, B’s, but A’s nothing below that you know.  But I had a wonderful teacher, Miss Patterson she had no children, she was good you know, she gave me some lessons after as well, so I was privileged in a sense and I think the school I went to was quite a good school. They used to sit in a room and look at me teach them about prayers and the Pope.  But it had a very good name that school for good academic students you know, what I mean, some of them left and went abroad and studied and got scholarships you know, Island scholarships.
 
So I must say my childhood, I quite enjoyed it.  Christmas day, have new clothes and New Years day, cos we had four holidays.  Christmas and New Year we had new dresses and there was this, like a fair, people made ice cream, home made ice cream, made fish cake, made this, make that so, you’d be going in the day and the evening, see all the people.  Then we were told not to go on the buses, because these buses were quite rough with hard seats on, big old Dodge buses, and we’d go over keep our head down, in case somebody knew our parents, and then we’d be shouting, singing you know, (Bobby wire are we im in the Policeman, have wire amin?)  you know, wires that’s all rotten you know, (Bobbin wire are we?) and then there was a lady, I think she might have had dementia, and you know children, and used to say (Meseles a garge?) they say Black Magic innit, Mesele was a Black Magic person, but I’m sure, talking to herself and all this thing, she was a garges.  They had this music, drive a truck (?), I’m not in a puppet show.
 
 
So it was good meeting your friends and then, I joined the church choir, so after choir practice we’d walk around town a group of us and go and look at windows, you know, cos I didn’t realise St Lucia was a place for a lot of the small islands, came to shop, people from there, because it had everything, so we’d go and look at all the shop windows, cos all these glass windows, they had stuff you know, advertising women dressed up mannequin, mannequin dressed up in materials and clothes.  Then walk along with our friends and then go home.
 
The lanes were dark you know, to walk through.  When I think of it I said to Peter, I had a good friend and we two like dressing the same you know, and I remember one New Year, I had yellow nylon and it was long waisted, with black velvet around the waist, a bit of black velvet, we thought we were the cat’s whiskers, and nice flat shoes with a band across, but apart from that, my Father done shoe maker as well, so sometimes he’d make shoes, sometimes, I thought ‘Oh I don’t like it!’ but you know I’m so pleased because I never had any problems with my foot, you know people had corns or that, he used to measure my foot, if I have to buy shoes now, cost me a fortune, but all the skills these people had.
 
Or the ship was mostly going to Canada, Trinidad, coming down because, it was a tourist ship, Lady Nelson or one of them anyhow, there were two of them, and I’d have to wait as soon as he come in quickly to go and get the stuff, because he didn’t spend much time like a day home.  Then they didn’t give them much time out of work, coming visit home, and he bring me some lovely things you know.  Him having nice cold bag in plaid you know and lots and lots of pens and things like that so. I would say my school days were quite happy.
 
[0013:17]
[Travel]

[Quite normal], yeah, my Aunts then left to go to...one of my Aunts left to go to Martinique to work, and she worked for the American Embassy as a cook there, nice we had lots of magazines as well, and so I’d go and spend time with her travelling on these little aeroplanes then, spend time with my Aunt. So I had to speak French not just Creole, I had to speak proper French, introduce me to all these people and they take me to pictures and so it was sort of conversant; cos they tried to speak English with me, I remember laughing at a young man, tried to say “the shoe black” because in French “la chaussure noir” so he was telling me “the shoe black” so I was telling him, “No, black shoe”, I always remember that he said “shoe black” I said “No, no, no, black shoe in English”.
 
 
It was nice there cos she’d send me to the shops deliberately to go and speak, a lot of them speak Creole as well but she wanted me to speak French, I’d go in and buy “un kilo pommes de terre” “poisson”, and they kissed a lot there was a lot of kissing of the French people, they greet you with kiss on either side, it’s only now they do it over here I think, they do it in Britain in the last few years, cos they never used to, and you know shake your hands. 
 
 
Then they kept lots of wine, my Auntie used to keep lots of demi john of red and demi john of white wine, they never drank tea, little cups of coffee, and when you went, everybody you know in my teen years they’d offer you some red wine in these little tumblers you know. They say ‘it’s good for you, it’s good for you to drink’ but now we know what red wine is good you know. So all these big demi john of red wine; and it’s an open market, before they had the central showers in Martinique, and the cakes and things were beautiful, like all shampoo and all this like this open supermarket, and I remember her giving me Dop shampoo and they still have it in France, I went to France once, they still have Dop shampoo, God how lovely, so it’s not just here I came, the supermarket was open and the patisserie cakes were beautiful, you know so I made friends, they haven’t got the numbers or anything now but growing up I made friends, in Martinique as well.
 
 
Then met Peter, you know, went to teenage dance that we all go, my Sister and I go to teenage dance.  They’d die I’m saying it [laughs].  A whole group of us you know, this one this teenage dance is different holidays, and it was a gang of girls, standing up and talking, then I think he asked my Sister to dance, so I came, which one, and he asked her and I don’t know if she had somebody else ask her to dance, so then he said, can I dance with him. So we all dancing, cos the boys asked.  I told my Grandchildren ****“I started teenage dance, dressed up” I said, I had this lovely dress all dressed up, with cummerbund I said, looked cool (laughs).

[00:16:45]
 
So that was it and Peter was sort of doing printing and I worked for a little while, cos I was waiting to go into nursing, I was too young so I worked for a little while for a chap who had a shop.  I was doing the book keeping sometimes for him, going around, they didn’t have all these things now, and big ledgers and doing the bookkeeping, (?) tall shop, I think they were quite prominent and his brother had a lot of the supermarkets back home. I used to do that, knew a lot of the people, got to know them, and between that, Peter worked in the printery, Pilgrim Printery.
 
Then my Brother came over, no my Aunt came over here in the 50s, her husband was here before, I think he came over the same year as the Queen, Queen’s Coronation and an Auntie came over and then my Dad sent my mother over and then Peter came then after. My Sister came before me; because my Mother say that I grow up, Esther was different to me, one was quiet alongside Esther.  Esther was always in a scrape, so she came up, but she wouldn’t stay in Newport, my Aunt thought ‘Oh she’s there’ because my Aunt then was older having children, and she thought Esther...[but] Esther just [up and] off to London, cos all her friends were there, that’s what she seen, everything happening in London you know. Dances and this and that, whereas Newport, we didn’t know many people.
 
 
Had lots of people from Jamaica, but you know the islands, that even though a lot of the things we do the same, but it was still this thing...at the beginning I thought ‘Oh it’s a small island people’ you know on a small island they didn’t….and sometimes I thought it was a little bit derogatory, we had the same thing but it was always “small island people”.  So it was just another family. The Compton and my Aunts and I think Marion, three or four of the families from St Lucia.
 
[00:19:05]
[Always wanted to do nursing]

Yes, I wanted to do teaching or nursing, and you know very young they take you into the teaching profession there, and you teach and then while you teaching you go into college, teaching college, or after that you can expand and you know there’s a limit how far you can go.

 
Then I always liked nursing, I wanted to do nursing, I was a little bit young to go in and when I sat the exam he said in the next eighteen months or something I can come, but then after a while, when my Aunt was there she encouraged my Mother “Oh send her over, she can do it over here, blah blah blah” yeah.  People said “Oh you do it in England, the certificate is good and you can travel, you can go anywhere and work” so I though ‘Oh’, I’ll come over here and do it instead.
 
 
[Expectations]

I just thought it was an adventure, I was coming to learn and whatever.  But, I don’t know, I just look, stand by the sea and see all of this..the sea and the sky meeting, and I’d stand and say “I wonder what’s behind that?” and I was just coming over, I didn’t think, a little bit apprehensive because I thought I’m leaving friends, but lots of my friends had come over here as well anyhow, their Mothers sent for them, and those were teenager come over, and I just thought I’m coming over. I want to do nursing, you know and I’m looking forward to all of that so.
 
 
It was hard leaving families, you know crying, you know it was very hard.  But I think when you’re young, yes, you think it’s so sad and so hard and leaving St Lucia where you had all this carefree life you know, and going to church on Sundays, you didn’t have a bit coat on you, and blouse and a big coat and...you just shook off your dress and a nice hat.  So it was hard, but at the same time I thought, I’m coming over, my Brothers here, my Sisters here, my Aunty, so I had this nuclear family here, so I didn’t think twice, I said I was coming.


[00:21:40]
[The trip]

Yes, [I remember the day], get on this big ship, I mean I was young and this lady said to me, I think she came with her Mother, she said to me “Oh I got Margaret”, I forgot her Brothers name, the two were coming over, a couple of years younger than me, “Could Vernesta look after them, because their Mum and Dad... I was just over seventeen years old.  Their Mum and Dad were over here, so it wasn’t unusual, just a problem having now because wasn’t unusual, you were coming over, then a child of four, five, you know they’d give it to Auntie to say bring, so she’d have the child on her passport, so that’s why a lot of the problem happened cos, somebody might have gone to live in Birmingham whatever wanted their passport gone, so you don’t know, although they had their passport sent back, disembarkation cards, I don’t know, but anyhow; so Margaret and her Brother, so we shared the same cabin, cos her Brother might have been eleven or twelve, and a couple of the young ladies from St Lucia, so it was fine.
 
 
Got dressed, you know had dresses made, get dressed and come up and I had coats sent me by my Aunt and this and shoes and that’s all, enjoyed ourselves.  We stopped in Tenerife, walked around there, got to Barcelona, and somebody sort of take charge, I don’t know if he was from St Lucia, you know people all say “all of you stay together” cos ship had everybody you know from the islands, Grenada, St Vincent you name it, and then from Barcelona, after that I thought we went under The Alps, after long time, I think ‘Oh yeah, we did travel under The Alps...” after I thought ‘Oh yeah, we did go under the Alps’ but I didn’t know that. Then to France, to Calais, Calais to Dover, Dover to Waterloo, Waterloo to Paddington; and then my Aunt husband was waiting and Peter, so yeah, there we are. That was me.
 
[00:23:46]
[First Impressions]


My first impression, I thought the train taking so long, how far have we got to go, cos then you had these coal fired train, well we take nearly three hours. I think we left late in the night, we got to Newport early hours of the morning, and then I saw these houses, I thought there’s one big house, people living in you know terraced houses, all the chimneys, what these chimneys for, you know and...then two days after, decide we going out, it was not my Aunt, it was one of the ladies from St Lucia, we call her Aunty Min, and Aunty Min said “Come on Vavern we going out, cos that was my nickname ‘Vavern’, come on we going out and we going to the shops” I remember having a polka dot, long waisted dress, had nice lace around there, lace around there and just a little cardigan and my little bag, said “Come on we going out”.  I was crying at the bus stop I was cold, you didn’t tell me I have to have coat, she said “Oh I don’t feel the cold” so that was cold, and we went a long time at Marks and Spencer looking at stuff and all that.  That was the first time of the cold and me, cos it was still cold in April.
 
[00:25:35]
[Work]

[Family and Peter here] Yeah, [immediately into nursing] No.  What I done I went to look for a job as a secretary, and going to this place, they said the job was (?) and when I got there, I think it was some little counter thing and (?) they said Oh! There isn’t any job then, and that was my first little thing of racism. “Oh!” she said, a big smile “Oh! No, no, no, we haven’t got any jobs there” so that was it then, and where did I go and work [thinking] it was factory, so I worked a few ours there, and that was terrible, it was dreadful, I think it was with nails and that sort of thing and you had to pack stuff and I thought ‘uh um, that’s not for me’.
 
[00:26:51]
[Nursing the beginning of the journey]

So I worked part time, I think it was a TB Hospital then, but I think they change it in Cefn Mably [Caerphilly], just as an observer you know, sort of going into nursing looking at that. Then after I worked for a couple of months before I went into nursing, anyhow the nursing thing was, they wanted me to sit exam again, so when I applied and I told her you know I done this and “Oh! I don’t know if you could do the exam?” because what happened, a lot of nurses were coming, they were recruiting them from home, I think a lot from Barbados as well, Barbados trained, recruiting then from home, and they were coming straight to a different hospital be it Yorkshire, Newport, wherever; but I didn’t come on that scheme, I decided to do my thing, and she said “I don’t know if you’ll pass the exam?”.
 
So I thought, you know, there again, because they’re recruiting, Oh! you’ve got to be sent by your own Government or something, but I say, I’ve come here, I’m invited and we’ve come here, I didn’t have to be sent by my Government; so I sat the exam, and then I got into nursing, I said, I wish she be alive to see today [laughs], that tutor. So there’s my nursing career started. That was (?) problem, as well as on the streets with racism and discrimination, people calling you names and then.
 

[00:28:19]
[Racism]

Well it come to your face you know, black this or black that, go home we don’t want you here, whereas you’d invited us.  Sometimes you didn’t take any notice, sometimes, you’re called, you just look at  them and [spit], and then you’d see them looking through their curtain window you know, if you’re passing by, cos Aunty Min, knew she was….she used to say [thumb to nose, wiggle fingers] because she watched….and that’s what you had, I thought….I wanted to go back after, I thought….cold air, although it was the spring, then you have people not accepting you, then they’d be asking questions, which I thought were stupid; “where did you learn your English? What house? Did you live in house? Did you live in trees?” if I wanted to be funny, I’d say “Yeah I lived in trees, I don’t know what houses are like here”, “isn’t it good I learn English, I only a couple of months here and I learn the English, isn’t that good?” They’d look at me...so, I would give them the answer. 
 
 
[Racism cont. then visiting Brixton Road]

You’d be travelling on the bus and you know they didn’t want to sit [beside you] even thought the bus full, they didn’t want to sit by you, because you’re not one of them.  You’d go to the shops, I think I wrote something like that sometime, when I was giving a talk, ages ago, and you try and give them money, they wouldn’t want your hand to touch them, you know, the money drop and then they’d see you standing there but...they’d be looking at someone white come after, asking them what they want and you know that sort of thing, out of face; so whatever opportunity I had I’d be going to London, I didn’t want to live in London, but I’d be going to London weekends and you’d end up in Brixton market on the Harrow Road in Paddington, and it was back in the Caribbean, cos wherever you walk, you see black faces you know; and Brixton, I mean it was mostly Caribbean people then, you know from Jamaica, from Trinidad, St Lucia, you name it, the same. So Harrow Road we’d meet a lot of people from St Lucia as well, being from the villages, what….and you know it’s “Patua, Patua” they’re speaking there and everybodies speaking Creole, they greet you in Creole first and then start the English, then into Creole again.
 
 
Then you’d go to Weddings and Christenings and there was always something happening down there, [the greeting] “Sarcafed, Sarcafed” [Alright?] Westy and Wales “Eh (sambitasion)” meaning country you live in, “Sarcafed, sarcafed, vinny, vinny, vinny” Westy London, Naaah, so Peter had a very good friend there, and we go to this place, my sister was there, got to her, then she’d take me around people that I know, lets go and visit this one, let’s go and see this one.
 
 
So it was...you really liked it because you heard a real Creole being spoken, a lot of people there was from a village (Cannery?), most of them were light skin, you know, some had blue eyes, and then they spoke Creole, because in Castries, although they spoke Creole and English, but from round the coast in the little villages, a lot of them spoke Creole first and English after; so you heard the Creole going on and the Dominicans would make some of the Creole, a little bit different, same and so you’d meet all these people you know and then you’d hear the Creole banned.  Cos I think one day, I went to London, I don’t know what happened with Esther, something or somebody died I don’t know, and I said “Oh, there’s no need for all of that” one said to me “you come from, where you come from, you don’t know anything about St Lucia” so I said to her (“mor sau a cardani, yamica palis pro a sav?), she was shocked [laughs].


[00:32:26]
[Dances and Carnival]

So it was nice going there, and then after a while got St Lucian dances, Trinidad and Tobago dances, I used to go to that you know. Then you’d meet...there’s people I didn’t see for years, then I met them at...I think there was a Trinidad dance, went and I met them there and Shirley, well I call her Cousin, she was in London, she tell me everything what’s going on, then we’d have a Carnival session.  We’d meet up a whole gang of us, I’d go to my Brother in Brent, and he’d cook something, then, she’d leave the car, we’d walk up from Chippenham Road, and then we’d go into the Carnival and we had little spot where we all stood and if one went somewhere, somebody would stay there and we all meet up together, jump up and buy food, and buy this, and that and eat and all midnight; she was living in Kent, so sometimes I’d stay at her place, because sometimes she be “Oh, come, come, we all live together”, she was my cousin, my Aunt was very religious then, very religious, Joined the Jehovah Witness, I think it was because she felt a sense of belonging there, because my Aunty was spat in the face, you know on the bus, when she came here, so I think it was a sense of belonging, and Aunty Min was the same, they sort of joined, the two of them joined the Jehovah Witness, but she tried to get me to join, [laughs] I wouldn’t “Oh Vernesta, you won’t go to Heaven” I say “what Aunt, I don’t want to go to Heaven anyhow” so she…. Oh the lessons she had people to come and give me lessons.  I say anyhow I can’t believe in some of the things you’re saying because I’ve seen blood save people and you don’t believe in blood transfusion and all that business and no birthdays, because it was, when I had my sons it was a celebration and gifts, different gifts for them you know.  Because my Aunt didn’t believe in birthdays, nor Christmas, didn’t believe in Christmas, so we just do the normal Christmas thing you know; because I live with her for a while, and then can you imagine Christmas coming (?) Aunt is so religious you know. But I think she turned that way because of the discrimination she faced. 
 

[00:34:56]

So, my journey into nursing, well I had the boys and between going into nursing I had Trevor, Nigel, a couple of years in between them and Mark.  I was 22 and then had Trevor, Nigel and Mark, so. In between that, doing nursing as well, so.  Then I carried on with my nursing career, as well as working nights, when the children were small. So I’d be there in the day, you know all that sort of thing, it was hard work, having them.  On holidays, I’d ask if I could do….some people would be a month for night or six weeks, I say can I do your six weeks and I do my month as well, so somebody would be there cos Peter works shifts, and someone would be there at home with them, so it was hard, very hard then.
 
 
At the beginning I didn’t want to stay, I wanted to go back, I thought I can’t be staying here, big coat, it’s cold, you can’t go to the beach as you would.  The Church, although we went to Church, We’re Church of England people, you got up in the morning it was nice and bright, so we start 10 0 clock, then you went to evening Mass then you went to Sunday School, but it was so different.  I think they still have the same, I went to the Anglican Church, when I lived, I lived further down from here at one time, and you had people asking me “where did you learn the hymns?” and I thought, I do belong to the Anglican Church.  The Bishop then was nice, try to you know [welcome us] and when the Nuns knew Peter was Roman Catholic, a couple of Nuns came over and said “Oh, (you have to Christen?) you have to join the Catholic Church, so.
 
Yeah so my experience in the beginning, just wanted to go home and I thought, my goodness me, you’re all supposed to be well educated people but little did I know, I probably was more educated than some of them, and all the things they say “all these people smell” or something, and I’d think, first thing I’d see on the bus, I thought, we never do that home. They’re glued to their make up, spit on their hands and (?).  Then when they try and threw their dummy, or put it in their mouth and then the Mothers just put it in their mouth or they just wipe it up and give it to them, and I thought no we are...you know, we washed you know, morning we had this soap and water all this, clean you and think ‘Oh well there we are, there we are’.
 

[00:37:45]
 
Iron your clothes and looking good and I thought, I couldn’t get used to the big coat you had to wear everywhere, until that little window we had in the summer.
 
But I still thought ‘Oh! I love sewing’  and Aunty used to sew, but other Aunty Min used to sew better, so I’d go to her say “you make this dress for me, you do that for me”, that dress she made for me, when she passed away three years ago. Bought the material it had lovely red roses, and I come back, and Aunty Min made that dress for me, she said “You are my little model” cos I must have been a size 8 then [laughs] and anything I say “Oh let’s go to Marks and Spencer look at the styles” and then she’d come back and (?) and she’d make me these dresses covered buttons, and we’d go to London, and I’d say “Oh, I like this”, we’d go to a shop, have to buy all the material, I wanted this she say “Oh! You better come” and for me to say, “Oh! You better come and wait for it”.  (?) so I’d have the them to take home to do it, wait here and then she’d show me how to cut on the bias, and how to do this, so I bought the sewing machine and I was well away, I made pants for the boys, trousers, yeah, I used to sew a lot and, you know cos you couldn’t afford it with the children having things like that, so if they had something new and I would just buy, go to the shop and buy all the materials and come back it was cheap there, and lovely material, and I had Aunty Min sew and she said “I’ll cut for you, go and sew it Vernesta”, and then show me how to knit, I used to knit bootees, lovely things for the boys you know.  Until they say “you knitting again” [laughs] you know jumpers and cardigans, I think I knitted mark little trousers and a little top, to go with, lots of stuff, so always kept busy, and baking, I used to bake bread for them and cakes, and then all their friends would come there and when they went to school, you’d would find I was full of men, mostly men, full of men.
 
When they went into music, I’d come there’d be somebody with their saxophone there, somebody with this, then Mark would plug into light something, then Nigel in the middle of the passage, and you had some new carpet and you had this block to keep someone on the drum, going on this new carpet, and I’d come home and I’d bake a cake, lovely cake and I’d say “leave a piece for me” and the friends would all eat, even though the boys used say “can we have toast then and beans”, “alright”.  So, yeah, they’d bring their white friends there, their black friends there, no bother, you know I’d rather see your friends here, than I don’t know where you are, so they’d come, I bought a new shed once and who had it? There were all their drums and their music in it and you know, but I think I was quite liberal as a Mother and they were free to do their thing you know, bring their friends, so.
 
[00:40:44]
 
Yeah, I done baking, I used to try and do ice on the cakes for Christmas and Mark would say... I used to get these little silver balls put on, and I know Mark would have taken out of the silver balls I put on. Yeah I tried everything, baking I don’t do a lot now because it’s too fattening and all that to eat it but I bake big bread, I used to love making bread for them, before the bread is baked, I used to make rolls, make rock cakes all sorts of things.  I think for me, I found things to do to cushion the way I was treated, you know if I didn’t do things like that I think I’d be dwelling on, Oh why would they treat me...cos I think some people sank, some people had mental problem, because when you went to hospital, they couldn’t explain themselves, you could see it you know.
 
 
Then the NHS was one of the most racist places to work at one time. Promotion as you’ll hear lots of people tell you, the Police and the NHS and lots of these big organisations, they didn’t think you should be promoted, you should be either cleaning or staying down where you are, and you still have people in the latter years (working would think you were?) cos I didn’t wear uniform I used to wear civi and think you were the cleaner, would pass me by, but I’m going to the office to do the clerical stuff you know.  Even my boss once and I think she was taking everybody to something and this one said “are you going Vernesta?” and I said “No”, so I meet her one day and I say “I know I’m a blonde and I have a bob, but they got black Barbies as well you know” “Oh”, [sharp intake of breath] I said well because I’m responsible for ABC and this person is going with you on that, and you haven’t asked me to go” “Oh” I didn’t think she know what to say, I say “Well there are black Barbies, I know you’re the Barbies, blonde Barbies” Well she wasn’t happy at all, “well you better come to London with me, Royal College of Midwives, Blah, Blah, Blah”.
 
 
But you still sit and sometimes people would say “Oh well, you’re one of us” and I’d say, “how can I be?”, I say “Yes, I do the same job as you do, but not one of us” you know, because if somebody comes for an interview, you say  “Oh..can’t explain themselves”, “why are you saying can’t explain themselves?” “You speak a couple of languages?” “No” so I said   “you always think in their language first, before they answer you” I say you probably say that [about me]” “no I’m not one of you”.  Look at me I’m a ….But I think doing things and getting things, apart from, working apart from doing these other things, it cushioned a lot of the blows, I think. Facing the discrimination, racism.


[00:44:00]
 
Yes, that good solid upbringing, because Friday I went to the thing in Newport and my daughter in law, she said, “What made you into what you are?” I said “I think racism and discrimination made me into the person I am, and shaped me” , but growing up I had strong people around me, the village, the community, you know they were urging you on.  You met people from abroad, and everybody around me worked, they done something, they didn’t just sit and rest.  Everybody was doing something, wonderful people were sewing and in the holiday time, go and help her, do the hem, if you have to go and buy the buttons, buy the buttons, in the shop or what, so you had wonderful people and strong people who shaped you. I remember one of my Aunts saying to me, “Don’t go and waste your time when you go over there you know Vernesta, don’t waste your time, go over there and do something” and I said to Peter, “I wish these people were around” I said. Because thinking of that long journey and all the problems I faced, I say persecution, they finished beating me up, you know. People laugh I say “ I got battered and bruised” I said and to come out on this end and you can give younger people the experience because, you had nobody there for you, you had to make your decisions and decide which way you’re going.
 
You know, how am I going to handle this? Because you had no race relation laws then, and even you had that when it came in, it didn’t do much, because always got around it, it’s only now, that you can make a fuss and you can say “yes” and it can go as far as it can go discriminatory, but people say what they want to you and “It’s only joke” you know, I say, I don’t joke, I go and have plaits in my hair now, if I see they have their hair done I say “God you have lovely style today”, not “Oh God we don’t know what colour your hair come in today” I’ve never ever gone and touch a hair to see, and then they come and touch it to see, “Why are you doing that? I never ever touch your hair, don’t do that to me” I was so cross in the meeting, I said “Don’t do it, I don’t do it to you, have I ever touched your hair? “I will comment I’ll say “Oh your style is really nice today” or they ask me and I’ll say “Oh it suits you” whether it’s not...but I say “Why do you want to touch my hair?” “Oh, you’re a law unto yourself” I say “if I want my hair in plaits, my hair was plaited when I was growing up, so what’s the big deal about it”. 
 
 
I remember having my hair coloured, a bronzy colour going to work, the Matron said to me “Oh, what was the colour before?” I say” Mrs James you see me all the time, my colour was white” I thought you know what, thank you for the (?).  Then Mark my son was in the cricket thing, he’s the only black boy who’s in the cricket team, in his school, so I had a picture, I took it in and I was showing her you know, “Oh, which one is yours?” I say “Mrs James there is a black boy there” Oh! Sometimes I think...so in the end they were calling me ‘Caribbean Queen’ in work. “Where’s the Caribbean Queen?”, “Yeah” I say “I’m a Queen”.



[00:47:52]
[Struggle with the idea of Britishness]

Yes. Growing up, well, as you know in the islands, you have to learn everything British, innit. Kipling's thing, Oliver Twist, The Charge of the Light Brigade, Shakespeare, Milton you name it, we had to learn all of that, and we had to recite things as well, and we had to learn all the songs and when it’s the Queens birthday and had to go on the square with your flag and say the thing you know “God bless our Queen Elizabeth” and all that blah, blah, blah you know, and then you salute the flag before you started, that’s what I was saying to the school children.  I said “What’s assembly like now?” “We say this and that and we go, you salute the flag, you sing a hymn, you say prayers and there you are school starts.  During the week you go to Church.  So I said…. A sense of Britishness when you came but after a time you say “Well, why are we really British then?”, because you had to do everything that was done here, then you came here, you were invited to come here, you know there was one village I thought there was nobody left.
 
 
People just come in you know, next thing you come here and you were treated with hostility, even in your work, your work colleagues, they didn’t treat you nice.  I remember starting my first Sisters post, I applied for job, five or six of us applied, and somebody said “Oh Pam will get the job Vernesta” there was one Asian girl and myself, the others were white girls, and Pam did get the job, and cheekily went to Miss Morgan I said, she said “How are you feeling, you were just as (?) and blah, blah”  and I said “Well everyone said Pam would get the job” “ who is everyone Vernesta? You shouldn’t listen to gossip”  I said “everyone” she said “you know why Pam got the job, somebody had the wrong dose of insulin and she owned up to it, she didn’t try and bluff her way [out of it], so that was the edge she had”. So Miss Morgan said to me “There is a job at the Lydia Bynon [Chepstow Road, Newport] Vernesta” “Oh I said it’s too far, I can’t go up there, I’m only living in Newport”, it’s Celtic Manor, right at the other end, I said “I’m not going there”.
 
Anyhow, I said I can’t, “I’d like you to come for an interview” I said “I can’t come I’m going to the dentist, where’s your dentist? So I hesitated I said “Oh, was down the hill there you know Carw Crescent, da, da, da” she said “I’ll come and collect you then, after the dentist, what time are you going?” “No it’s alright” “I’ll come and collect you”, so she did, she came and collected me, had an interview there, it was the Hospital secretary, it was her and one of the senior GPs, cos it was a GP unit, run by midwives, but the Consultant do a clinic once a week there, so she said “I’ll be the making of you Vernesta, you’re wrong, this big hospital with Doctors, that what you seeing”, “but I don’t know if I will like it, I’ll probably leave”.
 

[00:51:04]
[The beginning of me]

But that was the beginning of me, I had so much experience you know, think for myself, cos in the Gwent then you had to go for this and go for that and it was you making a lot of decisions, cos the GPS not stationed there, the Consultant comes once a week and when he did come and I did the clinic, and just do the wee and just do the blood pressure, he said “are you a palpater?” “Oh if you think you have anything wrong there just tell me” Yeah so I thought 'Oh’ so that was the making of me, the experience I had you know. Miss Morgan would come “You alright Cyril?” I say “Yeah”.
 
 
Then I face hostility with my clerk, she wouldn’t give me my payslip, Oh if I have to go (?) with my payslip.  Cos she was bang in the middle, there you are the wards are there, we have an office, then office, then she could see everything and she was really hostile, so sometimes you’d have a payslip two days before payday, they’d send them down and you’d have it in the Gwent, but they’d sent them up to her and she’d have it there, and I went for my payslip as I used to there, “No you’re not getting it until the day”, “No Mrs Price, I work...I want my payslip”, so I rang them in the office down there, I said “Am I supposed to have my payslip on the day, because you send them” “No, you can have it, it’s been up there how many days, you can have your payslip” well that woman was so evil and she come to my office, “if you come any more to my office”, we have these wide (?)  “I throw you down the stairs”, so this white midwife went to her and said “Mrs Price, just leave her alone, leave well alone” I think she slapped the girl, she did she slapped her in the face.
 
So I thought...I said “you wanted to do that to me, if you ever touch me Mrs Price you’ll be down that stairs” so I told my boss Mrs James, Mrs James didn’t do anything she was all quiet you know, that’s why Mrs Price took advantage, and then I thought days nothing have been said so I saw Miss Morgan the top Matron and I told her, she said “Well, you didn’t say anything, I expect you come up on the ward...” I said “no I expect Mrs James to tell you” “Right” so she brought all the Hospital secretary and all that, “because of delay, union and all that, she will be moving her office will not be there, she will be going right round the back for office” and when they ask the young lady, because she was a Christian, she say “You turn the other cheek” she say “Mrs Price”, yes she hit the girl on the face you know.
 
 
But as it is when we close that little idea, she found herself working somewhere in the back of (?) she had nobody to thing then, she was a lonely old soul working there, and I went to something and I met her Son in Law and he was telling me about….he was a counsellor and he said about his Mother in Law Mrs Price, if you worked in the Lydia Beynon you would have met her and I said “Oh, yes very good encounter” I said and I left that there, I said “very good encounter”. 
 
[00:54:22]
 
But you faced it everywhere even with a Sister I worked with and she was about to retire. You know I come up all enthusiastic and she was only working two days, but, she used to come up and check what I’m doing and I say “Know what, you can look after there, you go on, be in charge, I do my thing” I had my crazy ways of telling them, but you face it, sometimes they do it and they didn’t think you….face it and sometimes you would see what they’re doing and then you’d retaliate, or at times I’d come home, because when I had a Managers role looking after the General Practitioner Unit down here, and another couple of units, people I work with, when I was promoted and that wasn’t just giving me a promotion cos I had to go through the mill and they (?) about me (?) and people I’ve worked with over the years, “Oh she had that role, why is she Managing?” cos I had to Manage them, so my boss said “You know Vernesta, you come yesterday and you’ve got where you are, and they’ve been there before you, they haven’t got anywhere” and they made my life hell. 
 
It wasn’t easy, somebody belonged to the Royal College of Midwives and she was supposed to be a Steward “Oh well, so your grade will be this” so I say “Well you can try to take it away from me if you can, you can do it, no big deal, you know your problem, this, that’s the problem, I haven’t got a problem with you at all but this is your problem, it’s too good for me to be a Manager is it?” 
 
 
But fairplay Mrs Drayton was very, very good, and they went to say lies, they reported me for all sorts of things and then she said to me, “Don’t go out, I want you to come down after” So while this lady was there saying all her nonsense she asked me and she said “As far as I’m concerned, every GP. I speak to in Newport, they’ve got a lot of time for Sister Cyril, and as far as the staff is concerned, I haven’t heard anything from staff, so summing it up, would you like her to move elsewhere Vernesta?” “No I said “as long as she realise, I’m in charge, there’s a saying ‘two male crabs, don’t live in the same home’ somebodies got to be in charge, and as long as she realise that, if every time they up to their nonsense they come to (?) and I move them, (?) No I’ll work with them.
 
[00:57:08]
 
I had to go into two units, I had to join Unison, cos Unison if they have to deliver case they work in, with the firm, they get somebody who doesn’t work with the firm, from Cardiff or London, and I was in the College as well, purposely for my practice or if I did mal practice, touch wood.  Then I had to join two unions, because I felt the way they were going, people were looking at you so...and I encouraged one of my colleagues, she was from Guyana, Indian Guyanese, and she wasn’t treated very nice, somebody reported her and, I said “Jami, why this woman tell you to do this?” and they’d see her be struck off.
 
So when that new boss came I said “There’s a problem with Jami” she said Get the notes let me have a look” and this Sister, it was a Sister and she hated black people, and I said “Jami, if the Doctor advised continuous monitoring, why did you let her to tell you to take off the monitor and take her to the wards and the baby died?” and the Mother said “I will see that blue uniform off her” I said “Why did you let G C tell you?” anyhow Mrs Drayton fairplay was good, she had five cases against her by now, following Doctors orders and love her, but she could keep her job as long as in five years, nothing comes up against her, and then they moved [GC] the one who told her and was senior to her, do this, do that; she was horrible to me.
 
 
As a midwife in training, you do what you’ve been taught to do, which is safe and I think I was delivering a placenta, and she came in, it was myself and my colleague there, “Pull it this way” I said “No that’s not what I was taught”, so you’ve got to put your hands on the...at the bottom of the uterus and then ease it, it comes out easily, so I said “I’ve done my thing what they taught me, “Oh that’s what they train to be midwives” somebody's husband was there, because we let husbands in, and he said “I was going to punch her”.  So I went to see my tutor, told her about, I think she had a word with her.
 
[00:59:33]
 
Another time, I done a month on nights, because I was a sort of a Senior Sister then, so I done a month on nights, and I was looking after a young lady and she had Thalassaemia but I wasn’t happy with the foetal heart so, I said to the assistant of me, “go and tell Sister” she was in the office “to ring a Doctor for me, cos I’m not happy” “Oh” she comes in (?), but we’re no allowed to put (?) and my eyes was bulging, I said “are we allowed to do that?” “Oh, well Doctors been up all night, he said to me if I can do it” my heart, if anything happened to this woman, my name is there on the notes.  I couldn’t sleep in the day, so I rang the office I said “is it something I missed out, are we allowed to put (?)” “No” [GC] done it, well when I went into work the following night, I called in the office, I says “I wear blue and you wear blue, you should respect what I ask you to do because I would respect what you ask me to do, if you ask me to get a Doctor, I’d do it, why aren’t you doing it, why did you do it to me, if anything happened to that baby, I would be the one who told the Mother”, “Oh well you know we see the Doctors do it so” .

 
Then after they didn’t like me in the nights I worked with them, there were two of them, Mrs Nicholas and her, the other Sister didn’t get on, so I was in the middle.  Now I was experienced to be on the shop floor working, they put me to special, a woman who had a fit, and they kept coming in to see if I was asleep, I say “I know what you coming in for”.  (?) and guess what, she decided forty something she got married to a chap a lot older than her and she had a baby, and I was then a Staff Midwife, on the ward she was coming to, I said “Revenge is sweet” so, I was sweet to her, check her pillows, let me put you right, are you alright? I said “You’re ever so sweet” I thought she was a bugger, [laughs].
 
 
But after Jani’s case Mrs Drayton decide to shift them around, so guess where she work, I was above then, come to work with me, she couldn’t take it, she had time off, Mrs Drayton (?) she have time off sick, “You’re colleagues sick” “ You’re done with me, tell her you want to work with me” she said “No, you’re going to work with Vernesta upstairs” cos I was the punishment for her, for telling the midwife, take down of the monitor, Jami had a punishment as well, I think hers might have been the severest, cos she listened to her, take down the monitor and [GC] had, for not.  Well I thought revenge is so sweet, who’d have thought a turn around, as a student Midwife, the way she treated me.  So I looked after her, I send her to clinic, cos I used to do the clinics (?).  She said “You’re ever so nice Vernesta” cos she wanted to go and see...her husband was buried around where she stayed, (?) and she went to the Priest and everything and it was alright when around (?) but she couldn’t cope with coming to me, I’m her boss, well goodness me.
 
 
Then in the end, guess who, her daughter had children, (?) wow!, and she came to my ward, and she had her baby, and her Mother came, she said (?) “can I come in?” non visiting time, I said “ fine [G]”, I came over to see the baby and I said to her “Oh, what lovely baby” God it would have nice complexion when it’s growing up” the girls were saying “Oh, you awful” Jami’s “Vernesta, are you awful?” I said “No”.

[01:03:40]
 
I thought you do things and sometimes it comes back to haunt you, but I wasn’t nasty, I was quite nice when I looked after her quite well, I looked after her daughter. Only I think the same you done, you couldn’t stand me, and she was a refugee from the war, from, somewhere by the Baltic, yeah she was a refugee, cos her name was spelt [K….].  I thought there you are, some girls wouldn’t work with her, they’ll go home, they’ll come the night that she’s on, they’d go home, and you had others, would undermine me, I say to them “I’m not happy, (with?) one of the baby, they said “Oh, nothing wrong with it” and the one day I just walk off, and I just walk off the ward, so I not coming back, and she (?) I say “I don’t want to know, you’re too rude”.
 
 
But these were the things you had to face with and I don’t know why I got the strength when I think back, I don’t know how I managed, how I stayed, how I didn’t go mental.  I got the strength to come home and I used to come home and think of my little strategies, how do I handle them? And if I had to cry, I’d cry at home, I wouldn’t  show them.  There was another incident, and they were quite horrible, this Sister wanted Christmas time off, I say “You’ve got a New Year, Christmas Day, you had Christmas before”, Oh and she created on the ward and the patients (?), so I didn’t say anything to her, I walked away.  Our boss end us to do some social psychology or something, as senior people, and the woman said to me, something she said and I said “I always saw it as a weakness when I walk away from people” “No, it’s quite a good strength” she said “because you will retaliate and then you will have to say sorry, cos you might just go for it” and then I remember I didn’t say anything to her cos she kept on with (?) stuff, and Oh how horrible she is and da, da, da.
 
So I came back, I don’t know if it was a couple of days after and she came into work, and I watch her go in the office and I went in the office and I stood behind her and I say “We two in here now come on tell me, what you were saying that day, it wasn’t called for” I said, “You’re racist, you’re discriminatory, you want it all and I was banging the office, you want it all, answer me I said; and she said “well I never call you” I said “Yes, you are, you’re terribly horrible, there was no cause for that” I said “you want everything, you’re selfish, you’re self centred” I was just reeling out, and I said “You answer me now, two of us are in here, so I said “Answer me now” I stood behind the door, “Well I want to go” and I said “You answer me now, you’re horrid, you’re a horrible person, all you worrying about is my skin” I said, “and the job I’m in” I said “You have the opportunity, you all could have applied” Yeah they go and challenge it, oh I should get that job, you know. 
 
[01:06:39]
 
Then she said “I didn’t call you any name, I said “I didn’t say that, I tell you what you are, I didn’t call you any names, so, but I look back I say where I get all this strength from? (?) So, you had junior staff sometimes, and they’d go for a day off and they’d go to my colleague, and they say “Do you think I could have a day off tomorrow, because...” she she’d say “well Vernesta was there” so Jeni would say to me “Oh, she come and ask me” she said “No, Vernesta's coming back, you can ask her” and then I’d say to her “I know I’m black but I’m not invisible” “Oh what you say that for” “ well to some of you, yeah I’m black but I’m not invisible, and I’m here so why you got to Jeni and ask?” I said. (?) but that was your mechanism coping sometimes telling them, you know and (?) and then you had student midwives coming up.
 
 
Another time they wanted me to cater a particular side for Med students and student midwives to come and have experience so, I done it all, no  delivering in any late ward, in the wards, cos we had a twelve bedded ward.  I came back the next day, this one moved that back and they tell all the GPs, “Oh, nurse going to do this and that” so one of the GPs said “I don’t think she have to take orders as well innit, you’ll have to take orders”.
 
So another one came in and I said “Why didn’t you ring me first, Doctor?” said “I’m a real….whatever listening to them” and then I ask a student midwife, say “I’m doing some statistics” I said.  “This is your job for the week, keep up to date of whose transferred, whose this and that” and she said “You not telling me, that’s (pig feed?) I not going to do it” I said “You’re a student midwife, you want a report from me, I‘ve got to write a report”, and I said “Oh that’s what she said is it?” I said “What pay do I get more from you? I said “If you work weekends you’ll get more pay”.  I said “Sue just carry on” she say “ No I told her I’m doing it”.
 
 
That was the thing, drugs taking, the word was something was missing, and they probably write little letters to each other, and somebody intercepted it, guess what it is, what and what missing, and this one said “Oh you get into trouble” I say “No all of you are coming down with me” so my union then, I rang and then they were investigating, they she said “Vernesta why you have senior people working here for?”, for them to make sure they can’t get drugs problem. But these were the tricks, all the things they used to do you know.
 
 
 
[01:09:20]
[Got to the top, awarded Midwife of the Year]

When I had the OBE, I was working, and I was working a weekend, and I went in and said to the staff, cos I was in charge of the whole unit then.  I don’t know if it’s good or if it’s bad but I was awarded an OBE”, “Oh, Vernesta, Obi Kenobi”, so that was a big joke, so then I left it at that, and then it all kept running “Well Vernesta” because I must have gone to the canteen and somebody said “Was it that midwife up there who got the OBE?” “Oh  (?) get flowers  “Oh, Vernesta, the way you said it you know, you weren’t serious we thought it was just something...” and flowers and the boss kept a party for me and you know, invited Ray Singh and all these people I done work with with race and equality.  So I still ask, I went to somebody, I thought she may be the one who instigated this  so “ Chris is it you?” “No” I said “Your section was asking a lot of questions one time and I forgot, that was the year before that, “No” she said “Things have to go to the bosses, you know Vernesta, you know you’re special” “Special in what” I said “In my job is it?” So, “No, you are special, I’ve watched you, and I’ve watched you with some of the people coming from other countries, and how you go and make them feel comfortable”. 
 

[01:11:00]
[Patients from abroad]

I was like a God down there for the Somali ladies, because you know they won’t speak English, and I remember one, she had to have a section, and the Consultant said, “I’m not going to touch her until I can get somebody in” [translator].  I was running around, and this midwife say “Well I told her...” I say “Well you can’t do that”.  You have to get somebody to interpret, so I think I got one of the registrars, he’s Egyptian and he’s Arab, I said “I know you’re not supposed to do it, because it’s not your job, but by the time the foetal heart is (dying?), are you going to do it for me Sam?” He said “Yeah, she can speak better Arabic than me”, and then I got the Consultant who was going to operate on her, was fine.  I said “ Oh, thank you Sam” because we’re not supposed to get Doctors to interpret, or whatever, I mean, sometimes a Consultant (?) she’s Czechoslovakian, if there was somebody sick, cos a lot of them were coming over, I said “(?) would you speak to her” “Oh…..” I said “Well you’d better come because by the time I get an interpreter or whatever” and she’d do it.  So that was the things you know, I mean I never saw anybody coming from a different place, it doesn't matter, whether they were poor white, whatever I looked after them just as I looked after anyone. I supported the girls who wanted to do stuff, you know, “You can do it let me tell you what to write down”, you know for NVQ the support workers and then they were doing this thing, “Well I can’t deal with this thing” “Well what have you been doing with me all the time you’ve been helping me, you’ve been coming to tell me the woman is bleeding, you’ve been telling me the babies doing what, you’ve put Mothers at (ease?)”. I said “ You’ve got vast experience let’s go through it, you go and do it” and the Filipino ladies their a wonderful lot, interviewing them and people say “Oh, those people their English is good”   I say “Well they speak another language” They’re good, so it wasn’t easy but I remember what I had to go through, and every so often can still got through it, and I thought no human being should be going through all these things in their life.
 
 
So, the laws have changed now and law is a bit stronger for people now, but they’re still subtle in some areas, they think you can’t suss them out you know, and you suss them out a mile.
 

[01:13:05]
[Regrets]

I haven’t got regrets, it made me into who I am, and I think, that I can impart a lot of things onto other people growing up now, because I think what it is now, with people growing up they think they’re born here, they don’t really think the ‘Oh, I’m alright’ but you’re not alright, every so often you learn, you’ll come and some bigot will say something to you; or cos at one time it was as if your name was African or whatever you wouldn’t get an interview, they wouldn’t short list you whether you were a Doctor or whatever.  They done research on it and I...I was at a meeting of this chap, he’s now a Doctor, but he was a Barrister and the two of them done research in St Georges Hospital, and these people went together that worked there. They wouldn’t give them, and they went, and for that he went into medicine, and he was working in the East End of London. 
 
 
The same with when I used to go and do...before the Welsh Assembly it was the Welsh Office, so I’d represent them to go to the Department of Health, I was asked to go, and you would tell them the people coming from India or whatever all they need is their (?) they haven’t got the money, the £2000 to do it, and why don’t you allow them, to be on there for a few months, we can do their (?) encourage them to do it.  So I used to go for that meeting in the UK, USA the US people would come and they’d see what you have to offer them and you’d see what US had to offer them, and it was quite exciting meeting them, cos I’d go to these big meetings, with Professor whatever, I’m only a mere midwife, grass roots person [laughs], and this person I can’t remember his name, he was from Hull, some Professor in Social something, he said “The grass roots people can teach us a lot you know”, and then I started off, I forgot I was only a mere midwife when I came, I started chatting away, but you know.
 

[01:15:08]
[Race and Equality]

I mean, I got all this experience all over the place when I decided to go in to Race and Equality, I was the chair, and decide to get rid of the Equality thing they had in Newport, cos some of these men from the other continent, they would be doing their own thing, working under the auspices of that, and their business they’re carrying on, so just scrap it and then they ask me “Do you think we should ask…?” “Yes” I said. “I’ll help you, I’m not doing it for money, I’m working”, and then we had (SIREC?) which we unfortunately lost, it was well no funding coming in; but with the Head of the Council, this and the other if all these people, the Chief of Police would come to the meeting, and then we had (SIREC?) and they hated me these men, they hated me, woman, the Chair!  And one day in the Council meeting, you know I’m little and that big chair, and what he said to...he said “That woman, do we get rid of her?” I said “Look Mr [B] I’m not there because I’m a black woman for black people, whether you’re blue or black, if you face discriminatory, cos you could face racism as a white person as well, discriminatory, I’m there for everyone”.  So one Doctor say “You’re like this person in the Southern States, like on of the Preachers.
 

[Black and a Woman]

So, but you had it from some quarters, which some of them, they don’t understand, people from the black community, although, there’s Muslims and Africans, some of them did not like us as people from African (?) I give them what for [laughs].  It shaped me and it shaped me into being someone who is strong.
 
 

[01:17:03]
[A Stroke]

I mean after I retired and I thought I’ll chill out and guess what, a stroke, I thought ‘of all the things’ you know, even in hospital, I said, I had to write them a letter, I went to see them and I’m the patient, you’re the Consultant, and he gave me some tablets, said “Oh, we’ll follow you up and see you” and I said to the nurse “Who’s going to check my blood pressure?” “Oh” she said “Well your Doctor or whatever” I didn’t get better so I rang the Consultant myself, she said “Get down here”, I’ve never seen a Consultant tell off another Consultant in front of me, she said “Why didn’t you find a bed, why?” she said “Vernesta I’ll get you what ever”, I’ll  scramble get a bed for you to stay in” So I wrote a letter to the hospital, had a friend who’s a Barrister, I said “Come with me” and they invite me I said “If Princess Anne came through that door, you’d go out of the way to make sure, you know I’m a nobody and I” “Oh, no, no,” “I’m a nobody and I come through that door, I’m not to say it with me you are looking after me now, I’m a patient and I wasn’t happy with...he’s telling me I’m alright”, he said “Oh I done all the thing, you were alright, you were this and the other” but Doctor Freeman said he should have kept me and just looked, observed and what ever anyhow. 
 
 
I don’t know if the outcome would have been better as my friend said, “if you’d have stayed in a week Vernesta they probably would have killed you”, so, and they were nice after that, good treatment, I mean the Physios were good and then I said to her “What tablet are you giving people, cos black people don’t take the same tablets as white people”, cos I rang my Sister in Law, she rang me from Paddington, she was working as a supervisor for the old patients, the Clinics with all the Consultants, so she say “this Consultant say make sure they give her (Morapin?), it is expensive but that what go with black people so.  I told Doctor Freeman, she said “Vernesta it doesn’t matter how expensive it is you gonna have it” cos I say “that’s what in their research they find, that’s what go with black people”. Not all the other tablets, so, and so far here I am. They were very good, I had enough Physio, cos then the Physio was saying “You’re going to have Physio for many months”, my friends sister’s a Physio, she found out “Oh, no who said we couldn’t have” so I had Physio then, then after I wrote the letter, they must have seen my notes, they were talking, they said “Oh, we have to check you’re heart and you’re heart muscles, but you’ll have to come back as out patient”. The next thing I knew, they had how many appointments for me, going in to have my heart muscles, my heart was alright, they check to do this thing, “Everything's fine Vernesta, just you had a blip and whatever so...”, then I had good Physio, lots of Physio I had, somebodies doing my hand that time.
 

[01:19:53]
[Retiring in this country]

I thought of retiring, my idea was, cos I did have the land home and I would have a place built there, which it was in the process of being built; and I would go home for the winters and come here for the summers, cos I would wind it up and work with the girls see, “Oh, I’ll be going home for the winters and come in the summer and keep here...(?)”;  But unfortunately when I had this incident, I thought do you know what that might be a warning, your family….and then I thought about it long and hard, so I’ll only see Mark cos he likes driving, I won’t see Nigel and Trevor cos he’s a stick in the mud and...but marks loves company, you know Mark loves travelling and he just fits in you know come to St Lucia you know.  Then had some problems with finance...and all this nonsense you know...I’ll leave it so, two years ago maybe three years ago, my Nephew sorted it out and then, my Aunt left me a property I sold that as well.
 
 
[01:21:03]
[Let go of that]

Yeah, but my Nephew, who’s so, so loyal, so good, you know home to sell land, you what problems we get, so when I went down 2014, took him to see everything and got the papers and everything, the man who wanted to buy the land rang me here, was so anxious, and then got it sold, he done everything, he signed the certificate, paid him gave him the number what to do and say we found his house and he said “Auntie”, I say “Well I have to pay you because at the end of the day you found an agent”, he had this nice house but underneath he’d have two flats, so I said “You know what, you want bricks you want this cos you own the house you haven’t done it yet and the two of you, you’re working and working hard, you sort it out” so she said “The flat is yours”.  She send me the picture of the flats, the stuff that is yours and you come down.
 
 
I tell you what there’s a washing machine in the flat is...every time I speak to her in Patua and we laughing our heads off, I say “You rent it cos she have a daughter coming on, she just had a little boy two year old, and you have a daughter she’s going to come then, probably want to study that’s income for you, because it was a lot of money trying to get abroad to study unless they win scholarships, and you still have some money to help them.  So I say that’s income for you and they was so loyal, so honest, not often, cos people would say “Oh (?) you tell me to send money and I send money to do that, give it to her, sort it out” going to the people for (?) Tony and everything, then got it sent via the (phone?) Mark it was sent it by phone, over here to my Granddaughter, everything was done well, so, until they want the money you know, and every time he says “Clarks shoes and like flat caps, Oh, my friend was going out, shoes, you know those shoes you sent, gosh! I’m not wearing them everyday”.
 
[01:23:02]
[Refugees]

I‘ve just given Doreen my Niece who just rang, she’s going home next week, so I bought some of the Clarks shoes for him, because you know it’s big money home, and sometimes I think of the (?) some people go out of their way to be kind to you, and I think yes, I have been kind to people, so probably strangers did it for me or some where across abroad you know, and even to the refugees when they came here from Africa, my friend said to me “Oh, he might be a killer” and we befriended a few of them cos, some of them spoke French, some was Portuguese and some was like the Belgium French, and a lady said “Vernesta in the snow, they have flip flops, they walk down the road” so there’s me trying and find where they live, and Costa was living in some, you wouldn’t put your dog in there, horrible place, so I went to the Council. Peter said to me “What led you back there to meetings” cos I said “What is it cos they’re black, you thinking of the Serbian and all this thing” and these people walking around you know.  Costa was here for two years, and I used to invite them, cook food for them, or get stuff for them, and then he started to send Costa to (?) after two years, so I said...I know the woman cos I used to go to these meetings I said “You can’t do that” so I said “Costa you got all your papers sorted out the lawyers” he said “I have to wait” I said “Jane, he come and live with me, just give him pocket money” so I asked Peter I told him, I asked the boys as well, my friend say “Oh, he might have been a killer in his country Vernesta” but that boy said and he told people from Angola in London he said “God look after you, this is a nice person”.  Costa lived with me for a few weeks then, I said “You learn English now Costa, non of this speaking Angolan when...” so he was listening to (?) not talking to him, “I can’t believe it” he said, “when I  talk with my Mother”, “it’s Oh God is looking after you” people in Angola.  Costa came to live here, if he doesn’t hear from me for a couple of weeks, then he’ll ring me, and he got married had, how many children now four, cos his wife has got mental problem and she was raped coming over, you know, anyhow, Costa then he named one after me and he named one after Peter. 
 
He was in problems about four years ago with the Social Services, (“you know he threatened her?) well the girl say that or the daughter say that, well come and take the children, they do this they do...I had to walk up and I’m in court, they gave the children for fostering, the girl said her Father threatened her with a pink belt, she said “No I only said…….” they just didn’t listen, they sent Police round, Oh well, so I had to get the court, you know the court case down Cardiff, go in with him, I said to the Social Worker “You always accuse black men of being aggressive” I said, “ When we talk in the Caribbean, we touch we talk”  but I said “You will think it’s something sexual and because he speaks two languages, three languages, you think he’s aggressive, cos he tries to put a lot of emphasis on the English language, he’s not aggressive, but you always treat black men, Costa don’t speak, “Let me speak for you” and then Barrister then came one day, I don’t know why all this nonsense is going on and he was chatting to me and say this is what is happening today, he was so very good and I went to the lawyers, cos Maria didn’t have a lawyer or somebody and interpreter.
 

So I say, you supposed to go to all the meetings, PAMS and the CAMS and all these abbreviations for the Social.  So I’d go to meetings with him with Maria and I know the Chair said she got to have an interpreter and he said, I’ll walk out next time, cos they didn’t ask, so you see all the racism all the thing, they don’t even care.

[01:27:10]
 
So I think from what I went through I’ll never seen anybody, I've never seen justice of people, not at all, you know cos everyone was saying “you got Costa living with you” “No, he’s alright” “Costa have potatoes all day long, eat that for food and then (dig in?).  Out of all them he’s the nicest, and there’s one left and she’s in London, and there’s another lot from Brazzaville, and I think the lot (?) come here and you want everything.  Peter used to take the one boy, he said “He ran through forest and he had terrible sickle cell, he was a six foot four boy, but his legs was like my wrist, his arm was… then he had a terrible sore on his...and his eyes was yellow, we took him to the Doctor, and because I could explain myself and speak French, and I knew that GP, asked for him to go to the Gwent, Peters car was a smaller car, and we took this small boy and I was going with him for his treatment and one day it was this GP forget to ring casualty and they wouldn’t treat him.
 
So I was working I got some stuff, I went to their place, and I sort of looked after, treat him with gloves on and everything, he didn’t have anything like...it was bad sickle and he was telling, girls give me some stuff, you know my colleagues an all.  But two weeks there he’s saying “Oh”, (?) so Peter saying, there’s a big river full of fish, and he wants to preach, he wants to be a Preacher in two weeks, he’s Preaching at...money making all that things so this lot I didn’t bother.  I see them occasionally, and I said “You said there were guns after your Mother” or so called Mother she’s 70 but I don’t believe.  I said “You going back to Brazzaville for?” “Holidays”.  But Costa is the nicest one, so nice.
 

[01:29:20]
[The value of stories]

I do think it matters [that other people hear this], because nobody knows your story, if you don’t give it to them, everybody think you come through the ranks and you’re fine nothing happened.  But I think your stories saying the strength some people could have.  The negative and turn it into positive, the support you get from family and good friends, and I think the young people need to know or people after me because it won’t always be nice for them, it doesn’t matter whether you’ve got all the race relation rules and the laws or nothing, being institutions some will come and they’ll practice what they think is good, some will go, others come and they think to hell with it, cos right now we’ve got right wing Government in power and you can see it all around, and they wouldn’t care; and it’s always the people who are poor, who are black, another ethnicity, they’ll be paying the price.
 
So I think it is nice to hear stories, and I mean this is just a nutshell of my story, I could go on and on and on, with what I had to put up with, what I had to endure with, and I think some nights come in here and crying and thinking have I got to put up with that, I think I better go home, I got to go home, go back to St Lucia, lets go back.  That’s why he buy the land, my Uncle said there’s land going. Now I think, no, you’ve gone through all of that, you had your strength and you had the courage, and you had the tenacity to stand up to people, to challenge people as well, and why not?
Could be your home as well, so.
I get support from Peter as well cos he is the same as me, we both faced the same thing, he faced when he came here and the first job he apply, because he was doing printing and they were printers where he went, and they said “Yes, yes, we’ll have you” and the first day he went in they refused to work with him, because they thought he was a white man.  His face he went in to work, they tell him start and he went in, and they tell him, you’re not working here, rather walk away, and the MP heard, Mr Hughes and he went to speak, but there were no laws stopping them, and Peter never forget it.  I’ll never forget the patient who said to me, she was crippled in her bed, “your not going to put your black hands on me”, and Peter’s never forgotten, “we’re not going to work with you, we don’t want a black man here working”. 
 
I’ll show them, I’ll show them, I been to places and I’m the only black woman and I don’t care, you know I don’t care, cos I’ve got this inner strength and sometimes, I think I stand up to what I think and after ‘whoops a daisy’ you know.  But somebody’s got to do it, I’ve stood up for my colleagues, you know I’ve got this young lady I was telling you from Guyana, and she was quite timid, and I stood up for her and when you want to treat her and “Do you think you’re my big sister Vernesta”, as well as for other colleagues when they say “Oh, well Rita the football captains Mum, cos she’s not quiet, oh well she do this” I said “Stop talking and stop back biting” and stood up for her and said “you just watch Rita” and they work with you and they always try to put you into something deep.
 
There were some good people, there were some nice people, say to me “Vernes you that that happened, I just telling you” and if I had a meeting it come to my attention, no names mentioned.  A couple of good bosses also, three of them, really, really good, three, four, Chrissy was nice.  I just done my work like everyone else, delivered the job, worked, I think I gave the best of what I had in it and...So whatever I do or get wasn’t...and some people think, Some people said outside “Oh you got...” I say “No, I didn’t ask for it, I didn’t want it, I never done anything for me to get any award, I did it because I wanted to do it, whatever the award, the best one for me is the Midwife of the Year [2nd November 2006], whatever OBEs, and I get so embarrassed with Mrs Vernesta Cyril O.B.E.